Jump to content


Photo

The Rinoa=Ultimecia Theory


  • Please log in to reply
109 replies to this topic

#1 Solar Oni

Solar Oni

    Prince

  • Members
  • 2082 posts
  • Location:Memphis, TN

Posted 24 January 2005 - 04:30 AM

Hindsight edit-This is all stupid bullshit I came up when when I was an idiot teenager. I highly regret the fact that I was not only stupid/gullible enough to believe this stuff (Shortened tongue? Really!?), but also thought it would be a good idea to put it on the internet. If it were possible to delete your own topics on this site, this one would be long gone. But since it's not, I instead just ask that you disregard everything I said back then as what they are; a child with too much time on his hands (and bad spelling) putting way too much thought into his favorite video game and finding things that aren't really there.

Side note: 'Solar Oni' was a really dumb screen name.
-------------------------------------------------------

It's been widely debated that Ultimecia is actualy Rinoa's future self. Many people are on both sides of this argument and both sides have collectd much evidence that suggests that they are right. This topic was once the subject of one of Square Insider's longest threads and I feel it's high time we gave the subject another look. I'll start out by listing all the points suggesting the theory to be true (or at least as many as I can remember). Then someone else can list the points against it and we'll work out from there.
-----------------------
The Theory:
Due to the long lifespan caused by sorceress powers, Rinoa outlives all the other characters. In order to ease the pain of loseing Squall; Rinoa changes his ring, Greiver, into a GF and junctioned it to herself (or she may have just based the GF off of the ring, something along those lines). To her, Squall was the greatest person to ever live. As a result, Greiver was the strongest GF ("The most powerfull GF.... You shall....Suffer!"). But like the other GF, junctioning Greiver caused the diterioration of memory. Eventualy, all Rinoa knew was that she was a sorceress. She had even forgotten her own name, wich is why she took a new one -Ultimecia. Ultimecia knew only one thing about her past, and that was the fact that she had been happy back then. She wanted to be happy again, she didn't want to feel sorrow any more. That's why she sought out time compression. So that past, present, and future would all become one and the happyness of her past could be felt in her present and on into her future.
--------------------------
Points that support the theory:
-Rinoa and Ultimecia have a very similar apperance.
-Ultimecia has Rinoa's angel wings. Although anyone can obtain magic wings my useing float. Rinoa is the only one capable of obtaining true wings such as the ones Ultimecia has.
-Ultimecia has Greiver, wich she couldn't have without a connection to Squall.
-Ultimecia's castel was located at the very same place where Squall and Rinoa promised each other that they would be.
-Ultimecia's guardians have a few of your GFs wich you can draw if you missed then earlyer in the game. As the last surviving team member, Rinoa had all the team's GFs.
-One of the team's GFs is also a guardian in Ultimecia's castel (Bahamut/Tiamat).
-Ultimecia's strongest guardian is Omega Weapon, an advanced form of Ultima Weapon. Squall and company were the only people to ever see Ultima Weapon and live.

(There's probably more, but that's all I can remember at this moment)
---------------------------
Just to save some time later, I'll go ahead and disprove a few points against the theory.
-Odine said Ultimecia hasn't been born yet.
Counter Point: He dosn't know that for sure. He may know more than anyone else about sorceresses, but even Odine dosn't know everything about them. Remember, Adel strictly limited his research.

-Ultimecia has a speach problem caused by haveing a shortened tounge that Rinoa dosn't have.
Counter Point: As long as Rinoa's been alive, there's a very good chance that she may have been injured in such a way that she would talk like that the rest of her life.

-Where's Angelo?
Counter Point: Most dogs don't live past teenage years. Angelo was probably the first of Rinoa's friends to die on her. That pup is long gone.
-----------------------------
That's all I've got at the moment. But before the discussion is officaly started I'd like to give special thanks to bebe and TranceKuja, who provided alot of this information durring the first Rin/Ulti debate.

Edited by Solar Oni, 02 May 2013 - 08:43 AM.

  • ArthurMn likes this


RIP Charles Taylor Clark 1989-2009
Died protecting his mother
Posted Image
[Oni's Deviantart]


Register or sign in to remove this ad!

#2 Iso

Iso

    A Cosmic Castaway

  • Site Staff
  • 7226 posts
  • Location:Strong Island, NY

Posted 24 January 2005 - 04:37 AM

Oni your a kewl guy but this is just one thing i can not go with you on. I simply don't believe it. But kudoes for all the info! :)

Posted Image




#3 Solar Oni

Solar Oni

    Prince

  • Members
  • 2082 posts
  • Location:Memphis, TN

Posted 24 January 2005 - 04:46 AM

Thanks for the compliment. But aren't you gonna add to the argument? The whole purpose of the thread is to revive the debate.


RIP Charles Taylor Clark 1989-2009
Died protecting his mother
Posted Image
[Oni's Deviantart]


#4 Utopia-X

Utopia-X

    Soldier

  • Members
  • 729 posts

Posted 24 January 2005 - 06:00 AM

Most of the stuff this theory has to go on is assumptions and fabrications. When it all comes down to it, the only "evidence" the theory has is a split second clip of Rinoa's head interchanging with something sort of Ultimecia-like.

I think it's just a silly theory made up by people looking too deep into things. If the theory were true, I'm sure it would have been presented more clearly, but there's really nothing at all to prove it.
Posted Image

#5 maelay

maelay

    Commander

  • Banned
  • 1367 posts

Posted 24 January 2005 - 08:09 AM

Utopia-X is... Geek Killer Extradonaire. Haha, but really, you can't really think that Rinoa is Ultimecia by those facts. Square can be lame, but not lame enough to not give any info about that, if in fact, it were true. Haha, I love the points about Angelo dying in his teenage years and Ultimecia having a shortened tongue.

#6 Utopia-X

Utopia-X

    Soldier

  • Members
  • 729 posts

Posted 24 January 2005 - 08:30 AM

Seriously. All of the facts given are extremely obscure.

The whole scene that spawned this was merely meant to show how screwed up everything got as a result of the destruction of a sorceress who messed with time. Heck, we saw the battle go from a castle to a mountain range of some sort, and then into outerspace. After that, everything goes insane and Squall's suddenly stumbling around on some floating island in the nexus of the universe. To assume that there's some kind of hidden meaning behind a few second's video that was meant purely for artistic effect is both laughable and offensive in the name of art.

And to top it all off, if Square actually meant for Rinoa to be Ultimecia then the writer(s) are terrible at what they do. This should have been a major plot point if it were actually true, not some theory only recognized be a few fanboys/girls with video capture devices and too much time on their hands.

As far as I'm concerned, the Rinoltimecia theory is FFVIII's Cheese Weapon.
Posted Image

#7 squall_2

squall_2

    ~D.J~

  • Members
  • 2499 posts
  • Location:down under

Posted 24 January 2005 - 10:13 AM

...my contribution: what the hell are you talking about it doesnt make any sense. why would rinoa do that shes obviously NOT evil in any way


#8 Dirx

Dirx

    Prince

  • Members
  • 1878 posts
  • Location:Gold Coast,Australia

Posted 24 January 2005 - 10:18 AM

I just watched that sceen (FMV View on PC) and there seems to be nothing to support the fact that Rinoa is Ultimecia.

The sceen with Squall "Finding" rinoa, and her head morphs oddly, There seems to be an Image of someone, But, closer expetion see's that the "OTHER PERSON" is just a random effect of the morphing of Rinoa's head, and there are no horns, which i belive ultimecia has.

Fast forward to Rinoa "Dancing" around the camera "Expoloding" now and then, there are flashes of ultimecia....as well as Eden, and a Few other Charaters.

And Correct me if i'm wrong, but don't you get to name "Greiver"? Try playing throught the game name the ring, Bobs Ring, and see if Ultimecia's GF is called Bobs Ring. That would be physical evidence.

the omega theory, thats flawed, people who belive in this r=u theory assume people have done the ulitemate weapon side quest. which square dosn't incorperate into the plot of the games, as they are optional.

Tiamat is an evil form of Bahamut, scan tiamat and get its info.

#9 Sir Bahamut

Sir Bahamut

    Merchant

  • Members
  • 73 posts

Posted 24 January 2005 - 04:17 PM

Please read this:

http://db.gamefaqs.c...e_ultimecia.txt

It's a compilation I made of a whole lot of discussions spanning two years. It includes a big bit on R=U and should include everything. It comments on everything brought up here so far, but I'll commen on it anyway.

-Ultimecia has Greiver, wich she couldn't have without a connection to Squall.


Wrong. Ultimecia created Griever from Squalls mind right there and then in battle.
Look at what the japanese version says:

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things
[from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment
you. Fufu.

Then, if you scan Griever, it says "In SQUALLS MIND, the strongest GF".

So the appearance of Griever in the final battle can't point towards the theory. OF course, you could twist what we are told, but that would be pretty silly, no? We should use what the game tells us, after all.

-Ultimecia's castel was located at the very same place where Squall and Rinoa promised each other that they would be.


But if she had forgotten her entire past except that she was happy, how would she remember that promise?

Of course, she could have some deep remembering, but still. I for one think it's more likely that she put it there because it's the birthplace of SeeD, the people she really hate.

-Ultimecia's strongest guardian is Omega Weapon, an advanced form of Ultima Weapon. Squall and company were the only people to ever see Ultima Weapon and live.


Sorry, but this is farfetched and really stretching. This doesn't point towards the theory in any way, I'm afraid, because it relies on WAY too many asssumptions and "what if's" to be good.

Ultimecia has a speach problem caused by haveing a shortened tounge that Rinoa dosn't have.
Counter Point: As long as Rinoa's been alive, there's a very good chance that she may have been injured in such a way that she would talk like that the rest of her life


This is a new one. But really, how many assumptions are you going to make? IF we are free to make up stuff like this, I could easily speculate that Irvine got a sex change, killed Rinoa and took her powers, then went insane and became Ultimecia.

So really, let's stick to ONLY pure logic and assumptions based on ingame facts, not our imagination.
It's far more logical that she would speak different simply because the language would have changed after hundreds of years. This has been the case all throughout history, so it seems likely it would continue to change onwards, making Rinoa have a slightly different accent.

To assume that there's some kind of hidden meaning behind a few second's video that was meant purely for artistic effect is both laughable and offensive in the name of art.


Although I agree it's not right to single out any one event in the time warp, I wouldn't state it this harshly. After all, we see many glimpses of the past, so it's not so farfetched we'd be shown images of the future. It is after all a mix of past present and future you're in.

Fast forward to Rinoa "Dancing" around the camera "Expoloding" now and then, there are flashes of ultimecia....as well as Eden, and a Few other Charaters.


Only Edea actually The other characters flash in a different way. Rinoas head is first cut away, so to speak, so there's like a hole. Then in that hole thety all flash.
Ultimecia flashes THREE times directly over Rinoas face in a very dramatic way. Edea only flashes once in the very beginning.

Although as I said, I wouldn't take it as indicative of future events, it's something to think about.

Tiamat is an evil form of Bahamut, scan tiamat and get its info.


I think you're the one who needs to scan him, because it says nothing of the sort. It says he used to be a GF, but was twisted to a monster by Ultimecia. No mention of Bahamut, although it's definitely a possibility.

Anyway, please check out the link I posted to begin with. It needs a bit of an update, as I think I wrote it a bit too agressively, not mentioning alternate explanations to the so called "hints".

#10 tetsuda

tetsuda

    wanderer

  • Members
  • 4828 posts
  • Location:Downunder

Posted 24 January 2005 - 04:47 PM

Ultemecia's tongue is short? :what: Cool. I think the theory's cool. Dunno if its true though. Probably not but ITS STILL COOL! :)

君をもっと僕をもっと感じて僕らは飛ぶ


#11 maelay

maelay

    Commander

  • Banned
  • 1367 posts

Posted 24 January 2005 - 04:57 PM

IF we are free to make up stuff like this, I could easily speculate that Irvine got a sex change, killed Rinoa and took her powers, then went insane and became Ultimecia.

 

Hahhahahhah, best Ultimecia theory ever. PLAUSIABLE EVEN.

#12 New Yevon

New Yevon

    Adventurer

  • Members
  • 230 posts
  • Location:UK

Posted 24 January 2005 - 07:34 PM

So, it begins...
First of all, I recognise that this is theory that we are disscussing and I would like to seriously stress that notion. As I myself am a perspectivist/non-cognitivist (I believe there is no objective truth), I think that people will have to either believe in the theory or not, it's just like believing in God, etc. So, if people think that believing in God isn't stupid, then I think the same applies here.
If people want to post, they should do so in a constructive manner, pointless and silly comments should not be tolerated, valid and sensible argument is whats wanted here. Let's just be tolerant and open-minded here without prejudice and I reckon we can at least create a valid theory for people to believe if they want to.

So, in order to do this in the best possible way, we all have to act professinally here, or your just gonna end up wasting everyone's time and we would lose the flow of the arguments/points/perspectives being made.

Right then, I think before any such theory can be created, we need some foundations to place it on, otherwise this wouldn't work. There has to be certain assumptions and judgements we must make before progress can be made. I know this kinda goes against my perspectivism, but I don't really see any other way if we are to make a valid theory.
In other words, we need to make, as the philosopher Kant would say: "sythetic a priori judgements".
For example: we could assume that sorceresses do not age, or, (in the FF 8 world) that time travel is possible.
These judgements/assumptions must be laid down for people to observe when they are posting ideas, etc. However, you don't have to take these into account when putting forward your ideas, but for those wanting a coherent structure for the theory, I suggest that somebody clearly sets out a list of these judgements/assumptions, these will have to be agreed upon by all those wishing to follow this path. Once this has been achieved, I believe that the reasoning steming from these foundations will be a lot better secured and coherent.

So then, can someone please post a clear list of these judgements/assumptions/foundations so that we can examine and hopefully agree on them before we proceed any futher. As I said, to those not wishing to follow my proposed coherent structure may be independent and post their ideas without regard to the judgements, etc., if they so wish. However, doing so may result in your ideas not being taken into account into the `official` coherent, structured theory.
Posted Image

#13 Sir Bahamut

Sir Bahamut

    Merchant

  • Members
  • 73 posts

Posted 24 January 2005 - 07:49 PM

You mean something like this:

"The R=U theory is a proposition of what might happen to Rinoa after
a set of assumptions are made. To be precise, those assumptions are:

1) A sorceress has extended lifespan, and will live much longer than a normal
human.

2) Rinoa wouldn't give away her powers to some other innocent girl, and would
instead want to keep them herself.

3) Rinoas mental strength isn't all that good if she's all alone(ie. without
Squall and Co).

You may notice that assumptions 2 and 3 are really subsets of a greater
assumption, or rather interpretation of the plot; Rinoas psyche.
Obviously everyone will form an opinion of the main characters psyche during
the game, and this theory is based on an interpretation of Rinoa which makes
assumptions 2 and 3 perfectly logical and plausible. Assumption 1 is
discussed at length later on."

?

It's a draft from the update of the link I posted. Or did you want more assumptions? I don't think we need to establish trivial assumptions, such as timetravel being possible, which it obviously is, and can be seen by anyone who plays the game. Or similarly, that GF usage leads to memory loss. This should be obvious for all who are at all capable of input in such a discussion(or am I too optimistic?). I rather put the three assumptions that the R=U theory requires in order to be possible.
Well, as I explained, really only the first one is required to make it possible, in the strictest term of the word. The other two are there because if not the common motive and life of Rinoa doesn't hold.

Regardless, I believe the FAQ I wrote on it is the most clear presentation of the theory we can makie. Not to boast, because it's not a a result of only me. Hardly. I just happened to be the one to compile it all.
So really, unless people can find a better, more clearer view on the theory, I will for one hold that to be as clear as we can have it.

Oh, and one more assumption I think we can all agree on is this:

Any and all arguments or assumptions should be based ONLY on ingame events/Facts, OR pure logic(like the assumption that Squall and Co will die). Of course, this isn't entirely possible in any such debate, because such a lot is left to pure opinion and speculation, but we can at least try to stay within the frame of the game as much as possible.

Edited by Sir Bahamut, 24 January 2005 - 07:50 PM.


#14 New Yevon

New Yevon

    Adventurer

  • Members
  • 230 posts
  • Location:UK

Posted 24 January 2005 - 11:27 PM

Sorry, forget that shit I said about "synthetic a priori judgements". But that basically means if a judgment is "a priori", it is not dependent on any particular experiences. If it is also "synthetic", it nonetheless augments (adds to) our knowledge. It's predicate is not already contained in its subject. I'm not entirely sure how they can apply here, but thought that the assumptions we have to make are these some how... Never mind though, I'm just talking crap...

What I meant was, along the lines of what Sir Bahamut has said, for example:

So the predicate is:

1) A sorceress has extended lifespan, and will live much longer than a normal human.

And so the subject could be:

Rinoa will out-live Squall and her friends

That's the sort of thing I was talking about, but I don't know if it's a "synthetic a priori judgement". But, since I don't actually know if this is true from experience of the actual game, I would say it was "a priori". And it could be "synthetic" because it's a proposition that attributes to the subject a predicate not inherent in the subject because Rinoa could out-live them all without actually being older then them (they could die from other causes). You get it now? Lol, you probably don't, never mind... it doesn't really matter...

Anyway, from my current perspective, I agree with all judgements (1), (2) and (3). So, Sir Bahamut, yes, that's the sort of thing I'm talking about.

Also, are we going to stick to the facts/experience gained from the English one alone? Or both English and Japanese? As the Japanese version can be somewhat radically different from the English version in respects. I would advise we just stick to facts/experience gained from the English version. Do you agree?

Plus, there are many other things like this we have to take into account. Like the fact that we have to assume that the physics of the FF 8 world may be different from ours, if not, then it is different from ours. Since there, time travel is possible, we can confirm that from experience in the game. But this respect of course is difficult to comprehend since to us as of yet, as far as we are aware, time travel in our world is not possible. The fact that the FF 8 world's physics could be different to ours could raise all sorts of problems, as perhaps every possibility is possible.
So, are we to assume then that the FF 8 world is totally independent from ours in terms of physics, etc.? Or, shall we assume that the physics of the FF 8 world is the same as ours? Either way, I think either choice is going to be problematic. I would suggest that we should assume that the FF 8 world operates on the same physics as our own, otherwise, like I said, basically anything would be possible and we wouldn't be able to explain it. Besides, I believe we should assume that FF 8 physics is the same as ours because we can't know the FF 8 world's physics anyway (if it was any different to ours). So, I think we only have our own world of physics to work on. This surely has to become an "a priori" judgement and assumption, regardless if it's "synthetic" or not.

Edited by New Yevon, 24 January 2005 - 11:46 PM.

Posted Image

#15 Solar Oni

Solar Oni

    Prince

  • Members
  • 2082 posts
  • Location:Memphis, TN

Posted 25 January 2005 - 05:16 AM

I should appologize. I wasn't very clear with what I ment in the first post. Several of those things mentioned arn't proven/logical facts, but rather small details that hint towards the theory being true. Things such as Tiamat, the guardians haveing the GFs and such are mostly speculation, but still serve as hints towards the target truth. Of course, we will not be able to totaly rule out speculation as FFVIII is a game that leaves alot of room to speculate. But I suppose we'll get to that eventualy. Now, allow me to list points in favor of the theory once more, this time listing only points that are proven or can be logicaly assumed.

1) Sorceresses have a long lifespan. This idea was aquired from the game's images of Edea. You may note that durring the credits Edea looks just like she did durring the orphanage flash backs. This leads us to assume that the sorceress powers have some effect on ageing and it's logical to assume that if the ageing process has been altered, then the lifespan has also been altered. Much assumption is used in this point, but none of it is far-fetched. Of course there's always the chance that Square just didn't want to go through the trouble of makeing Edea look older or simplily overlooked the point. But with Square's reputation for paying attention details, it's not likely.

2) Sorceress powers can drasticaly alter the owner's apperance. This is simply a case of putting two and two together. Just look at Adel, what are the chances she was born like that? But you can come to the same conlusion with alot less speculation by looking at Edea before gaining Ultimecia's powers, the way she looked with them, and the way she looked awhile after loseing them to Rinoa. It took Edea awhile after loseing them to change back to normal, wich would explain why Rinoa didn't change throughout the rest of the game. Of course this leads us to wonder why Edea didn't change before getting them since she was already a sorceress. It's been said that the ammount of power the sorceress has may affect just how much she changes, but there is no proof (or anything that could be logicaly speculated as proof) of such.

I know there was more I was gonna say, but I mannaged to forget it in the course of posting the first two. Simply put, my memory sucks.

EDIT- I forgot to mention. Altough the shots from the ending scene were what origonaly sparked the first conversation, I'm realy not putting it in to consideration as it's realy hard to go on.
Also, I couldn't read the page you linked to, Sir Bahamut, due to a lack of time. But I will read it as soon as I can.

Edited by solar oni, 25 January 2005 - 05:21 AM.


RIP Charles Taylor Clark 1989-2009
Died protecting his mother
Posted Image
[Oni's Deviantart]





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users